Fun with the Catechism

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ambrose

Well-Known Member
when a soul is tempted to take the credit for something that God did through him it creates the opportunity to be humble - not distressed

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Baltimore Catechism Lesson 5

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ok...getting somewhere..

Let's change the "Tempted to take credit" and change it to recognising God "may" have done some good through you and you are simply recognising this without instantly jumping to the sin of pride. Is that possible??
Would God never show us He is pleased because he knows we will instantly puff up with pride, or can He show us He is pleased if He sees that particular soul is in a state that can cope with it and use it for his benefit. (Like the example you gave "because it clearly sees and appreciates how dependent on God it is")

This is not about me, it's a theological question I'm curious about.
 

Admin

Administrator
Let's change the "Tempted to take credit" and change it to recognising God "may" have done some good through you and you are simply recognising this without instantly jumping to the sin of pride. Is that possible??
If one sees that God has used him to bring about some good, then simply recognising it is not proud. It can make him very humble.

Would God never show us He is pleased because he knows we will instantly puff up with pride, or can He show us He is pleased if He sees that particular soul is in a state that can cope with it and use it for his benefit. (Like the example you gave "because it clearly sees and appreciates how dependent on God it is")
I am no theologian but I understand that when the soul sees and appreciates how dependent on God it is - that is but the first step and only the first step. The soul could praise itself for being holy enough to appreciate how dependent on God it is.

The sin of pride is so deeply rooted in us that it rears its ugly head - prompted by the tempter - at every opportunity.
Studying the lives of the saints it is clear that the only way they dealt with it was by seeking to join in Christ's suffering on a continual basis. Fasting is one example where, for example, the saints only ate enough to keep body and soul together - in short kept themselves hungry all the time. The bodily hunger, undertaken to conquer pride, was transformed into a burning hunger for God...a hunger that could not possibly be satisfied on this earth but would always be growing leaving no room for pride to get a look in. It was a continual work. Even then, the just man sins seven times a day. Another way undertaken is staying awake, having just enough sleep to refresh the soul to spend as many hours as possible in contemplating Christ Crucifed in order to draw more grace to overcome and conquer pride so that they would love God more and more, hunger for God more and more. Their hearts became aflame with the love of God.

But most of us are not like the great saints so what do we do? The Church teaches that the saints died loaded with so many merits that they provided a kind of spiritual bank for us sheep to draw upon. In short what we cannot merit for ourselves may we obtain through their intercession. Thus can the grace be obtained for us to co-operate with. We have to do our part of course which is to be alert to that grace; pray to recognise it, for it will come if I mean what I prayed for.

Going back to the question - how do we apply this grace when we are tempted to praise ourselves? Recognising how dependent on God we are is the first step. The next step takes us forward instead of backwards to self-praise; the second step is co-operating with the grace won for us by praising the Saint that is interceding for us. When we become dependent we are seeking something we do not have otherwise we would not be dependent. Pride does not want to be dependent on anyone or anything. We want to be self-reliant. To step out in faith is using our faith to create what we need to displace pride.

No time to be proud when your heart only wants to thank the Saint for his/her intercession. The praise and thanksgiving we utter is directed to the Saint who IS pleasing to God. What's more THAT pleases God because he loves His saints to be praised.

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ambrose

Well-Known Member
Just great Admin. I need to read what you said a few times.

But I'm coming back....:)
 
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ambrose

Well-Known Member
While we wait....

You said.

"If one sees that God has used him to bring about some good, then simply recognising it is not proud. It can make him very humble."

I take that as a "yes" to my question?

Which was...

"Is it possible"?
 
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ambrose

Well-Known Member
secondly....

Maybe, God with the Saints, at times, showed the Saints how pleased He was, which drove them more strongly and directly towards the cross! Maybe God knew that pride would never be an issue with them

Do we run in fear in fear when thinking that God may be pleased with us.
Or should we embrace it?
Spiritual pride is the most terrifying thing I can think of.
My illness makes me terrified of flying closer to the sun.
But can faith allow me to fly closer, because grace is sufficient?
 
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Admin

Administrator
While we wait....

You said.

"If one sees that God has used him to bring about some good, then simply recognising it is not proud. It can make him very humble."

I take that as a "yes" to my question?

Which was...

"Is it possible"?
It is possible - yes, depending on the state of the soul. No, if the soul is deciding for itself that 'God sees that particular soul is in a state to cope with it' (your quote).
 
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Admin

Administrator
secondly....

Maybe, God with the Saints, at times, showed the Saints how pleased He was, which drove them more strongly and directly towards the cross! Maybe God knew that pride would never be an issue with them

Do we run in fear in fear when thinking that God may be pleased with us.
Or should we embrace it?
Spiritual pride is the most terrifying thing I can think of.
My illness makes me terrified of flying closer to the sun.
But can faith allow me to fly closer, because grace is sufficient?
Maybe, God with the Saints, at times, showed the Saints how pleased He was, which drove them more strongly and directly towards the cross! Maybe God knew that pride would never be an issue with them
The Church teaches that we're all conceived in a state of pride. It is a permanent condition for as long as we are on this earth. An unbaptized person is in a state of mortal sin. The baptized person is freed from the inherited state, but is still wounded by having inherited it. It wounds our souls every second up to the moment we die. It makes us forever vulnerable to Satan's temptations. The Saints had to battle with it right up to their deathbeds. The only creature that was pleasing to God from the moment of her conception was His Mother, Mary, who never thought for a moment that she was pleasing to God. She spent most of her life on her knees humiliating herself merely as a speck of dust under His Feet. A soul consecrated to her Immaculate Heart is the only protection provided by God Himself for the whole of mankind. She is the refuge of sinners - meaning that if we do not accept Her as the only gateway to receive deliverance from our wounded state we cannot go to heaven. In other words we cannot get to heaven unless we are delivered from the effects of, and/or our state of sin (if unbaptized). Still being subject to the effects of the original sin of pride means that we can easily fall into mortal sin. Adam and Eve are not responsible for mortal sins that I alone commit. Freed from the inherited state creates a new situation making me personally responsible for sins I commit. Wounded, and with the tempter's guiles the majority of souls appear to be in a state of motal sin continuously.

Mary alone has the power to protect us - it is Her Merits alone that provide for us. The world/all other 'religions' are rejecting Mary cutting off the only means of mercy. Her merits have provided for the Saints to become saints who in turn can more speedily obtain Mary's protection for us.

This all adds up to the fact that each one of us has to work continually to crush pride more and more each day of our lives. All the saints, without exception, searched for ways to humble themselves. There are ample opportunities in our daily lives to humble ourselves. I, personally find it the hardest thing of all to accept injustices because my pride is hurt. I would take a guess that most of us are in the same boat - some better than others of course. That is why the intercession of the Saints (referred to in above post) provides a simple means of interceding and opening Mary's protection for us.

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ambrose

Well-Known Member
It is possible - yes, depending on the state of the soul. No, if the soul is deciding for itself that 'God sees that particular soul is in a state to cope with it' (your quote).
Yeah, I was never suggesting the soul is deciding for itself. Not at all.

Thanks for all that....I find it all interesting. I think I'm all clear now.
 
D

Deleted member 149

Guest
Q. Is heaven happiness?

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A. No. We are given in a worldly catechism that “Heaven is happiness”. Heaven is not happiness. Happiness is an effect of knowledge. First you need to know something; then you are either happy, indifferent, or sad.

Heaven is knowing God; happiness is the effect of that knowledge.

Which is why over and over again Christ and His Church says to us we need to learn and study: to Know, Honor, and Serve God; thereby to receive his favor and grace to attain Him forever in Eternity.

To know something is to act says St. Thomas Aquinas. We can either act wisely or unwisely in that knowledge like the parable of the 10 virgins or the prepared marriage feast.

When one wants to receive the sacrament of baptism, the Catholic Church asks the catechumen:

Priest: What do you ask of the Church of God?

R: Faith.

Priest: What does faith offer you?

R: Eternal life.

Priest: If, then, you wish to enter into life, [first by knowledge]keep the commandments: [effect in act] thou shalt love the Lord they God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and they neighbor as thyself.​

Heaven is where God is. Happiness comes in attainment of God once received through the theological virtues: Faith, Hope, and Charity. They are so called theological virtues, says St. Thomas Aquinas, "because they have God for their object, both in so far as by them we are properly directed to Him, and because they are infused into our souls by God alone, as also, finally, because we come to know of them only by Divine revelation in the Sacred Scriptures ".

But it is the true knowledge of Faith that is needed to first know and please God –“Without faith it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11), then the other two theological virtues have their meaning.

Thus, the true happiness in heaven is the effect of knowing God. It is a state of being begun to be enjoyed now in time through sanctifying grace (possession of God though not secured), then carried through in fidelity of one’s life passing into the threshold of eternity to be secured in the gift and possession of God no longer needing faith to believe when one sees Him; and no longer needing to hope and yearn when one is secured in Him for all eternity.



See also Without faith it is impossible to please God
 

Admin

Administrator
This is great Machabees. Members are a bit shy I think, but willing to learn as well as yours truly. Keep it up please and members can ask questions as it goes along.
 
D

Deleted member 149

Guest
What is so important to the above is that we humans are primarily spiritual creatures more than material. Profoundly, God is closer to us than we are to ourselves. God made us in the “image and likeness” of himself; that is spirit and sanctifying grace (Geneses 1:26). Our highest faculty is our intellect. It is the area that dwells on truth and good the angels adore God with or it can allow evil to prosper and ferment as the bad angels do.

Knowing God is the first and most beautiful thought and act we can do. It is the wisdom Holy Scripture speaks of. Everything else in this world is just dirt. In practice, is like always encouraging a baby to say the name of Jesus before the word mama or papa; or encouraging our neighbor to bless God than transgress.

God said he is truth. “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” (John 14). Where truth is there is God drawing us. It is our nature and capacity to know the truth in everything we do; thereby to honor God. So when we are approached with something true, we have no right to refuse, manipulate, or transgress it. If one does, they commit the sin of omission; darkness sets in. It is God who reaches out to us. He can only speak truth. Whether one may think it is little truth or big truth makes no difference. If one thinks they can pick and choose, they effectively pick and choose God or evil – period.

So whether it is a truth in engineering, learning botany, or our catechism, it is all a stepping stone to arrive at God who made such things in creation for our betterment. Higher too is metaphysics, to the greatest study being theology; studying God himself.

The point here is truth; the object or our intellect. It is not an option. We are not worldlings of Cain or protestants making up things as one goes alone. One cannot dispel truth without dispelling God. So when the neo-sspx or the false resistance dispels at whim a truth given to us, they have no right to remove it in front of others for their selfish gain –that is evil.

To see our prelates and religious, thousands of them, distort who God and what His faith is that drew Him down on earth as a Babe and received scourges for, the only faith manifesting the Father that can please Him, is the darkness of mind manifested as iniquity Scripture speaks of (Pharaoh, Herod, Pilot, Arian, Luther, Calvin, Smith, and all the rest…); they couldn’t see any longer thus unable to speak true. Grace had departed in proportion to their lack of interest in truth. “What is truth” said one of them (John 18). “I do not want to know” I was told recently trying to talk to some neo-sspx people last week trying to help them with the latest news and betrayals of the neo-sspx superiors.

“I do not want to know” they said. What a punishment!

It is the created life of all souls to know God. It can only be through truth. Catholics are given the blessing to apostolate that beautiful truth and show that good where God is; as our Guardian angels do for us.

Happiness is knowing God, and in this life, living faithfully to that truth accordingly.
 
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immaculata

Well-Known Member
These are the three times That I have been told or read:

at Conceptiom
at Birth
At Baptism

In "Our Catholic Faith" it says our angel protects us from Birth till Death. I always thought it was from the moment of Conception. The role of our angel is to protect us and guide us so it would make sense from birth till death.. I was wondering, when we die, at what point does our angel leave us. I always understood that our angel escorts us to God. So would that be at the particular judgement? Being in Purgatory, we wouldnt need our angels protection, as it is for purification. Are they with us at the FinalJudgement?. Do our angels get reassigned to another soul when we die and do we meet our angels when we die?
 

immaculata

Well-Known Member
Been searching all morning for answer as to when we receive our Angel. I have been finding different answers....but seems like According to St Thomas Summa Theoligca would be from birth.


Some sayings of Padre Pio:


"What consolation when, at the moment of death, you will see this Angel, who accompanied you through life and was so liberal in maternal care."



"My Guardian Angel has been my friend since my infancy."

"Oh, if all men could understand this great gift that God, assigned to us; this celestial spirit."

"May the desire to see this inseparable companion incite you to leave this body quickly."



 
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immaculata

Well-Known Member
Angels
by Father Raphael V O’Connell, SJ

21a. Our Guardian Angels – Catholic Teaching
The angelic nature, being wholly spiritual, is far superior to ours and hte very least of the angel is a prince, compared with whom all earthly beauty and wisdom are as dross, and all human might is frailty. It is not, then, a matter of course that they should wait on us, but a dispensation of infinite love, the same which prompted God’s own son to come among us, “not to be ministered unto, but to minister.”

For he hath given his angels charge over thee, that they keep thee in all thy ways. In their hands they shall bear thee up, lest perhaps thou dash they foot against a stone. (Psalm 110:11-12)

In the words of the psalmist we find, not only a clear assertion of the fact that the guardianship of men has been entrusted to the holy angels, but the motive also for so loving a dispensation – man’s frailty and the dangers to which he is exposed. These might, indeed, of themselves have moved the good angels to sympathize with us, especially when we bear in mind tha tthe main source of danger to us is the warefare which the fallen angels cease not to wage against us. But, as a matter of fact, it is in fulfilment of a sacred trust confided to them by our common Creator, that our guardian angels surround us everywhere with their powerful protection. It is not of their own free choice, but as a solmn duty, that they are ever alert and active for our welfare.

It might, it is true, be objected that the psalmist is here speaking not of men in general, but of Christ. For the Psalm is Messianic, and certainly the demon so understood the words, and in one of the temptations applied them to Christ. But because the passage quoted is to be understood especially of Christ, as Saint Augustine, Saint Ambrose and others expound it, it does not follow that there is question only of Him. On the contrary, the Fathers commonly interpret it as referring to all mankind, as the opening words of the Psalm would seem to indicate that it does. For there the psalmist asserts, quite universally, that “he who dwelleth in the aid of the Most High, shall abide in the protection of the God of Jacob,” of which protection the guardianship of the holy angels is a singular instance.

So, too, in another passage, the same inspired writer declares in general terms that “the angel of the Lord shall encamp round about them that fear Him, and shall deliver them.” (Psalm 33:8)

This, if we confine ourselves to the general statement that by the ineffable providence of God, the angels have been deputed to guard men on their pathway through life, it is, as Suarez says, a doctrine of faith, for it is expressly contained in Holy Scripture. If, going a setp further, we assert that each individual of the human race has a guardian angel appointed to watch over him from birth, we are still enunciating a Catholic belief, not indeed contained explicitly in Holy Writ, nor defined by the Church as an article of faith, but so universally received and with such solid foundation in Holy Scripture, as interpreted by the Fathers, that it cannot without great rashness be called into question. In fact, to deny it might also be termed erroneous.

Certainly our Divine Lord says, speaking of little children, “See that you despise not one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 18:10) And Saint Jerome, commenting on these words, infers from them the great dignity of our souls, seeing that each has from birth an angel deputed to watch over it. And the holy Doctor argues to the same effect from the words of the disciples, when Peter stood at the gate and knocked, after his miraculous escape from prison. They could not credt the message of the portress, that it was Peter himself, and they said, “It is his angel” (Acts 12:15), showing thereby what was already the common persuation of the faithful.

Another passage of Holy Writ, which the Fathers quote to prove that we have each our guardian angel, is that wherein Jason, in blessing the sons of Joseph, says, “The angel that delivered me from all evils, bless these boys.” In their comments on this test, and on those previously quoted, Catholic interpreters are quite at one. The texts all alike imply the doctrine universally received in the Church to the effect that not only are angels commissioned in a general way to guard makind, but as Saint Anselm says, “every soul, at the moment when it is infused into the body, is entrusted to the keeping of an angel.”

The language of Holy Writ is perhaps not as explicit as we could wish, but the traditional understanding of the inspired word, as conveyed to us by the Fathers of the Church, of whom many others might be quoted, leaves nothing ot be desired. Yet, admitting that each individual is provided with a guardian angel, it might still be questioned whether the same angel may nbot be at once the guardian of two or more. To this we can only say that the view according to which each one’s angel is distinct from this neighbour’s, and deputed to guard him exclusively, is more in keeping with the language of the Fathers, and more in harmony with the common understanding of the faithful. Also, the liberality and munificence of Almighty God are more apprent in this view and it also avoids the difficulty (amounting, it would see, to an impossibility) of having one angel serve as guardian to individuals dwelling apart in distant places.

There have been some who would have restricted this salutary guardianship of the angels to those who are destined one day to share with them the happiness of heaven, or to tohse oat least who are in the state of grace. But the well-considered, common opinion of Catholic theologians, basing their views on the concordant languate of the Fathers, assigns a guardian angel indiscriminately to just man and sinner, to believer and unbeliever, to Christian and heathen alike.

For God denies to no man sufficient help to save his soul and in the actual order of divine Providence, the guardianship of the holy angels is one of the elements which go to make up that sufficient help. For God permits men good and bad, to be tempted by the demon, though of themselves they are unable to resist the tempter successfully. Hence He also provides them with the assistance and protection of the holy angels, so as to supply for their insufficiency.

And just as the angels guard those who have never had faith or sanctifying grace, so too, they continue their guardianship over those who have lost the faith or have fallen away from grace. In fact, this is one of those special provisions of the divine mercy, whereby God ever seeks the reconciliation of the sinner and urges himi to turn from his evil ways.

Then, too, even the just and the elect are exposed to the assaults and temptations of the evil one. Why should not the good angels solicit the sinner and by holy inspirations and illuminations seek to bring about his return to God, or at least prevent him from sinking to even lower depths of sin? Either result would be apt to contribute greatly to the welfare of the just, by removing from them to a greater or less degree the bad example of the wicked, which often has so baneful an influence on the lives of others.




21b. Our Guardian Angels – When Our Angels’ Guardianship Begins
The little child whom our Blessed Lord set in the midst of the disciples, as a model of humility, innocence and simplicity, was surely a very young child and free from the strife of the passions, as Saint Chrysostom insists. Saint Ambrose, too, holds that while he lacked the use of reason, he was also without guilt of any kind. And Saint Jerome says that Our Lord proposed him as a pattern of innocence, because he was not of an age at which he could sin.

And so when our Blessed Lord uttered a solemn warning against scandalizing “these little ones,” and gave as a motive the dignity which they derive from the guardianship of the angels, His words are a convincing argument to show that the angels are deputed to guard men from their very infancy and, as Saint Jerome rightly infers, from birth. For, once we admit that the use of reason is not a condition, we have no grounds for restricting the guardianship to any particular period of infancy.

But while it is commonly said that each one has from birth a guardian angel appointed to watch over him, it may be disputed whether by birth we should not here understand the very moment when the soul is infused into the body, and the child begins to have its own distinct being and personality, already a wayfarer on the path to heaven and capable of incurring for itself, the guilt of original sin. A special angel, deputed to guard it from that period, would be more particularly interested in its welfare, and would exercise over it a more loving care. This is the opinion of Father Suarez, as well as that of Saint Bonaventure, and others and, as it would seem, of the Angelic Doctor.
 
D

Deleted member 149

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At what point do we get assigned our Guardian Angel? And until when do we have them?
I really like the question. It seems from the quotation of Father Raphael V O’Connell SJ, above, Saint Anselm says, “every soul, at the moment when it is infused into the body, is entrusted to the keeping of an angel.” Therefore at conception.

I didn't see were "until" we have one, but my guess would be until after the Judgement seat of God as they vie for our benefit before His throne to help gain for us the beatitude of heaven; and friends for all eternity thereafter as God's good appointment of them is to help us in time to do good...bringing us to God.

God bless our Guardian Angels!



 

immaculata

Well-Known Member
How long does the indelible mark on our Soul remain?

According to the Douay Catechism 1649:

The indelible mark or Character on soul will remain forever, either to our great joy in heaven or, our confusion in hell.


From the Catechism of Trent:

Sacramental Character
The second effect of the Sacraments which, however, is not common to all, but peculiar to three, Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders is the character which they impress on the soul. When the Apostle says: God hath anointed us, who also hath sealed us, and given the pledge of the Spirit in our hearts, he not obscurely describes by the word sealed a character, the property of which is to impress a seal and mark.

This character is, as it were, a distinctive impression stamped on the soul which perpetually inheres and cannot be blotted out. Of this St. Augustine says: Shall the Christian Sacraments accomplish less than the bodily mark impressed on the soldier? That mark is not stamped on his person anew as often as he resumes the military service which he had relinquished, but the old is recognised and approved.

This character has a twofold effect: it qualifies us to receive or perform something sacred, and distinguishes us by some mark one from another. In the character impressed by Baptism, both effects are exemplified. By it we are qualified to receive the other Sacraments, and the Christian is distinguished from those who do not profess the faith. The same illustration is afforded by the characters impressed by Confirmation and Holy Orders. By Confirmation we are armed and arrayed as soldiers of Christ, publicly to profess and defend His name, to fight against our internal enemy and against the spiritual powers of wickedness in the high places; and at the same time we are distinguished from those who, being recently baptised, are, as it were, newborn infants. Holy Orders confers the power of consecrating and administering the Sacraments, and also distinguishes those who are invested

with this power from the rest of the faithful. The rule of the Catholic Church is, therefore, to be observed, which teaches that these three Sacraments impress a character and are never to be repeated.
 
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