Fun with the Catechism

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theophilus said:
Admin said:
Come on theophilis...it's your turn to ask a question of us!
Please accept my apology, but someone more clever than I will have to take the task. I have tried but still cannot think of anything good enough.
There are heaps of questions in the Baltimore Catechism see: www.sacred-texts.com/chr/balt/

That way you can know the answer before you ask the question. And members can consult it also to find the answers. It is good to do this because a lot of people remain silently watching and everyone learns...which is the whole idea. //images.proboards.com/v5/smiley/smiley.png





 

ambrose

Well-Known Member
Machabees, Wouldn't there be other people living who would be of the house and descendants of David? Why would Joseph be king?
 
D

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ambrose said:
Machabees, Wouldn't there be other people living who would be of the house and descendants of David? Why would Joseph be king?
Yes there would be many, but St. Joseph being the elder, son of Heli, begotten by Jacob, was next in line for the throne, yet the good God had other magnificent plans for St. Joseph in the time of persecution towards Israel.

It is interesting how God allowed and directed the entire human drama in the old-testament and continues in the new to point all things to His Son (Canticle Of Canticles).

As the line of the Just is shown in Holy Scripture from Adam to Abel, to Noah to Abraham, to Jacob to David, to Solomon to [Saint] Joseph, we also read the praises and declarations from the Angel to each Mary and to St. Joesph: "

To Mary:

Luke 1: [26] And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, [27] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin' s name was Mary. [28] And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. [29] Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. [30] And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

[31] Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. [32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. [33] And of his kingdom there shall be no end."

To St. Joseph:

Matthew 1: [16] And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. [17] So all the generations, from Abraham to David, are fourteen generations. And from David to the transmigration of Babylon, are fourteen generations: and from the transmigration of Babylon to Christ are fourteen generations. [18] Now the generation of Christ was in this wise. When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost. [19] Whereupon Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing publicly to expose her, was minded to put her away privately. [20] But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost.

[Bible's commentary: [16] The husband of Mary: The Evangelist gives us rather the pedigree of St. Joseph, than that of the blessed Virgin, to conform to the custom of the Hebrews, who in their genealogies took no notice of women; but as they were near akin, the pedigree of the one sheweth that of the other. www.drbo.org/chapter/49001.htm ]

Also,

Luke 3: [23] And Jesus himself was beginning about the age of thirty years; being (as it was supposed) the son of Joseph, who was of Heli, who was of Mathat... who was of David."

[Bible's commentary: [23] Who was of Heli: St. Joseph, who by nature was the son of Jacob, (St. Matt. 1. 16,) in the account of the law, was son of Heli. For Heli and Jacob were brothers, by the same mother; and Heli, who was the elder, dying without issue, Jacob, as the law directed, married his widow: in consequence of such marriage, his son Joseph was reputed in the law the son of Heli. www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=3&l=23#x ]

As it was immensely important, described in prophesy, that in order for the Son of God, the Christ, to be King, he needed to come from the line of Royal blood. And as shown above that the genealogies took no notice of women, even though Mary was still of the house of David where Jesus received His [Royal] flesh from, the royal pedigree was shown from the husband and father St. Joseph who begot legally to his son Jesus who then also by right was a heir to the throne of David.

As that is interesting, and as all things that the Father had created are directed to His Son, who is the Christ, we also hear in the sermons on the feast of Christ the King more of His Grandeur. One in particular I will pose as a new question in the next post.

 
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Q. How many titles does Christ have as a King over us? In other words, how many rights or crowns does He have over us?
 

theophilus

Active Member
Admin said:
theophilus said:
Please accept my apology, but someone more clever than I will have to take the task. I have tried but still cannot think of anything good enough.
There are heaps of questions in the Baltimore Catechism see: www.sacred-texts.com/chr/balt/

That way you can know the answer before you ask the question. And members can consult it also to find the answers. It is good to do this because a lot of people remain silently watching and everyone learns...which is the whole idea. //images.proboards.com/v5/smiley/smiley.png

How many internal processions are there in the most Blessed Trinity?

How many real relations are the in the most Blessed Trinity?
 

Admin

Administrator
theophilus said:
Admin said:
There are heaps of questions in the Baltimore Catechism see: www.sacred-texts.com/chr/balt/

That way you can know the answer before you ask the question. And members can consult it also to find the answers. It is good to do this because a lot of people remain silently watching and everyone learns...which is the whole idea. //images.proboards.com/v5/smiley/smiley.png
How many internal processions are there in the most Blessed Trinity?

How many real relations are the in the most Blessed Trinity?
How many internal processions are there in the most Blessed Trinity?

Off the top of my head : Would it be proceeding from the Father to the Son then both generating the Holy Spirit?

How many real relations are the in the most Blessed Trinity?

Three?






 

Admin

Administrator
Machabees said:
Q. How many titles does Christ have as a King over us? In other words, how many rights or crowns does He have over us?
I can think of three.

King of Kings
Lord of Lords
King of the Jews

 

Admin

Administrator
Machabees said:
Machabees said:
As there were four preternatural gifts given to Adam and eve (Immortality, Impassibility, Integrity, and Infused Knowledge), and due to their (original) sin against God, they have lost them to now experience Mortality (death), Suffering, Concupiscence, and ignorance, and God had sent his Son Jesus Christ as the Redeemer to restore our fallen nature and open the doors of Paradise (Heaven) for us, and we know that Jesus and Mary did not have original sin in them when they were born:

Q. Did Jesus as man have all four of the preternatural gifts when he was born?

Q. Did Mary his mother have all four of the preternatural gifts when she was born?
Here are the answers:

Q. Did Jesus as man have all four of the preternatural gifts when he was born?

A. No. Jesus, as man in the incarnation, only had one of the preternatural gifts of Integrity and not the other three in necessity for His work of redemption governed by His Father to accomplish.

  • Jesus, as man, for the sake of redemption, needed to die on the cross to
    expiate the punishment of sin; therefore, He did not have the gift of
    Immortality.
  • Jesus, as man, for the sake of redemption, needed to suffer to expiate
    the effects of sin; therefore, He did not have the gift of Impassibility.
  • Jesus, as man, for the sake of redemption, needed to learn ‘experimental
    knowledge’ (something of which God does not have) to associate Himself
    in fullness to our human nature with compassion and understanding in
    uniting Himself to us and ourselves in relating to him; therefore, He
    did not have the gift of Infused Knowledge as man (but as the Son of God he did); however, as man, He did have perfect knowledge. “And it came to pass, that, after three days, they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, hearing them, and asking them questions.” (Luke 2:46).
  • In all, Jesus, as man, did have the preternatural gift of Integrity.
    As explained earlier, the fullness of his reason as man was in complete
    subject to God, and his desires were in complete subject to His reason,
    and His body was in complete subject to His human soul. Therefore,
    Jesus, as man, for the sake of redemption, needed to expiate the effects
    of the inordinate desires of flesh and soul to morally suffer the most
    sensitive and acute pain in his soul; which is why Jesus had suffered
    more in his soul than in the excruciating pain in His body.
As such, the son of God taking upon Himself in the incarnation flesh from Mary His Mother, and born as a baby who is called Jesus, that as man who has a real human body and a real human soul, voluntarily did not receive the three other gifts of Immortality, Impassibility, and Infused Knowledge in order to associate himself to us and suffer physically in place of our stead. But, He purposely chose to accept the one gift of Integrity in order to suffer the most sensitive pain of the soul including the immense unbearable pain of abandonment and loss of God his Father: “And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying: Eloi, Eloi, lamma sabacthani? Which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (St. Mark 15).

Without the gift of Integrity, Jesus could not suffer as sensitive of a pain of soul as He did in His work of Redemption for the love of us.

His love is total and merciful.

To love is to sacrifice; to sacrifice is to love.

Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy…


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Q. Did Mary His mother have all four of the preternatural gifts when she was born?

A. No. Mary, His mother, only had one of the preternatural gifts of Integrity and not the other three in necessity for the work God had asked of her as co-redemptorist governed by God to accomplish.

  • Mary, as His mother, for the sake of co-redemption, and who is not
    greater than her Son, needed to die with her son; therefore, she did not
    have the gift of Immortality. [Note: we know in tradition that Mary,
    the mother of God, was assumed into heaven body and soul and did not die
    as we know it, but was preserved like Elias “And as they went on,
    walking and talking together, behold a fiery chariot, and fiery horses
    parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven.”

    (4 Kings 2), and Mary was assumed up to heaven not to let corruption
    touch His daughter. “I will put enmities between thee and the woman…”
    (Genesis 3).]
  • Mary, as His mother, for the sake of co-redemption, needed to suffer
    with her Son; therefore, she did not have the gift of Impassibility.
    “And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother: Behold this child
    is set for the fall, and for the resurrection of many in Israel, and
    for a sign which shall be contradicted; And thy own soul a sword shall
    pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.”
    (Luke 2).
  • Mary, as His mother, for the sake of co-redemption, needed to learn to
    associate herself in fullness of our sufferings we endure in our
    weakness with a compassion and understanding to unite to us and
    ourselves to her as our Mother; therefore, she did not have the gift of
    Infused Knowledge; however, she did have perfect knowledge.
  • In all, Mary, as His mother, for the sake of co-redemption, did have
    the preternatural gift of Integrity. As explained earlier, and in
    likeness of her son, she experienced complete subjection to God and had
    the fullness of her reason and her desires and body was in complete
    subject to her soul. Therefore, Mary, as His mother, for the sake of
    co-redemption, needed to also morally suffer in her soul with her son
    the most sensitive and acute pain throughout her Son’s life, torment,
    and crucifixion at the foot of the cross; and thereafter to nurture the
    infant Church for the honor and glory of God.
Without the gift of Integrity, Mary could not suffer as sensitive of a pain of soul as she did in her work of co-Redemptorist for the love of God and for us.

The love of God does this…and the love of souls greets us to do more for Him.
I really wanted to think about all the above...so want to clarify if my understanding is in line with what you have said Macchabees.

Therefore, Jesus, as man, for the sake of redemption, needed to expiate the effects of the inordinate desires of flesh and soul to morally suffer the most sensitive and acute pain in his soul; which is why Jesus had suffered more in his soul than in the excruciating pain in His body.
I have always thought that when Jesus suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane that, his moral suffering - greater than his physical suffering, was because he was suffering the pains of hell for each one of us. When that was done, he was ready to carry out the visible/physical suffering that came after. It has been said that the price for man's individual and collective sin/s required infinite compensation. Does that mean He had to suffer the penalty of hell in order to redeem me from it...and he had to pay the penalty of hell for each one of the elect, and only an infinite power could possibly do that. It had to be done to undo the injustice that was done by each one of us to the Father with our personal sins, and Adam's original personal sin (thereby freeing us from the inherited state - through Baptism/Sacraments etc.)

Mary, as His mother, for the sake of co-redemption, and who is not greater than her Son, needed to die with her son; therefore, she did not have the gift of Immortality. [Note: we know in tradition that Mary, the mother of God, was assumed into heaven body and soul and did not die as we know it, but was preserved like Elias “And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold a fiery chariot, and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” (4 Kings 2), and Mary was assumed up to heaven not to let corruption touch His daughter. “I will put enmities between thee and the woman…” (Genesis 3).]
Again, I am asking if I have the right understanding when putting things in my own words. I believe that Mary slept (as Jesus said when raising a person from the dead that 'she is only sleeping'.) Of course He alone could do that since he would have given that woman the benefits of his coming Sacrifice for her sins...unlike our Lady, however, who could not sin. Apart from the Incarnation - Mary was redeemed because if she had been the first Eve, she would not have sinned unlike the rest of us. Eve is not guilty of the personal sins of each one of us.

Death is the wages of sin...Mary did not sin...therefore she did not have the kind of death that I have nor the kind of death that Our Lord submitted to...because, laden with sins, he went to hell as a mortal sinner would go to hell. Having already paid the price in the Garden of Gethsamane He finalised the situation in Gehenna, rescuing the purgatorial souls from eternal hell, and damning the remainder to eternal punishment. He then rose out of Hell (bodies were seen rising after Calvary) taking with him those who were in the Bosom of Abraham..prophets etc. - probably Adam and Eve also because they would have done their purgatory on earth (even St. Joseph?)

It is this total submission and what it actually entailed that shows how he totally identified with sinners. In submitting to the Father, he proved that he was dying like I die...it is as if he had no say in it at all. As God he suffered unbearably the separation from His Father; (what a soul experiences when he is damned). If the Father had sent him to hell, he would submit. Which is really what His Father did decree for his Son. As Man, he proved his humanity totally in that he would not save Himself, would not abandon us as we die; would not leave without us. He did that so that when I die He accompanies me, having been there first. I will not suffer the loss of heaven as he suffered in my place when abandoned by His Father. And, having died for each one of us, he died not only once, but as many times as there are souls to be saved (infinite). In short, he gave up His soul totally and completely that I might be rescued and snatched for Satan's grasp when weak and dying - when I, a sinner, would go straight to hell.

There is nothing truer than Hell is my destiny without the Advocacy of Our Lord Jesus Christ; without the shocking price He paid in Body and Soul, not to mention the humiliation he willingly endured. Words cannot express the depth of humility, nor can the mind comprehend, that God would humiliate Himself to save my soul.





 

theophilus

Active Member
Those are excellent questions. I have also some reserve with the answers given earlier. Not only because I have heard otherwise and know that not all the theologians agree on this point but also because of a Latin phrase I once heard which was attributed to St Alphonsis Ligouri. The phrase is: Potuit Decuit Ergo Fecit. and it was given in reference to a mystery if Our Lady. Roughly translated it means, He could, He should, therefore He did (though more preciously probably; it was possible for Him, it was fitting for Him to do so, and therefore He did it).
I would apply these words to those questions myself and ask what us most fitting... my answer was different.
 

Admin

Administrator
theophilus said:
Those are excellent questions. I have also some reserve with the answers given earlier. Not only because I have heard otherwise and know that not all the theologians agree on this point but also because of a Latin phrase I once heard which was attributed to St Alphonsis Ligouri. The phrase is: Potuit Decuit Ergo Fecit. and it was given in reference to a mystery if Our Lady. Roughly translated it means, He could, He should, therefore He did (though more preciously probably; it was possible for Him, it was fitting for Him to do so, and therefore He did it).
I would apply these words to those questions myself and ask what us most fitting... my answer was different.
Sorry Theophilis what questions/answers are you referring to?
 

theophilus

Active Member
Admin said:
theophilus said:
How many internal processions are there in the most Blessed Trinity?

How many real relations are the in the most Blessed Trinity?
How many internal processions are there in the most Blessed Trinity?

Off the top of my head : Would it be proceeding from the Father to the Son then both generating the Holy Spirit?

How many real relations are the in the most Blessed Trinity?

Three?



Your first answer in correct, there are two processions; the Son proceeding from the Father and the Holy Ghost proceeding from both.
Can you name the type of precession each are?

Your second answer is incorrect, do you wish to try again?

Any takers on circumincession?
 

Admin

Administrator
theophilus said:
Admin said:
How many internal processions are there in the most Blessed Trinity?

Off the top of my head : Would it be proceeding from the Father to the Son then both generating the Holy Spirit?

How many real relations are the in the most Blessed Trinity?

Three?



Your first answer in correct, there are two processions; the Son proceeding from the Father and the Holy Ghost proceeding from both.
Can you name the type of precession each are?

Your second answer is incorrect, do you wish to try again?

Any takers on circumincession?
I will have to give the second one more thought (and study?). Do you mean circumcision?
 

theophilus

Active Member
Admin said:
theophilus said:
Your first answer in correct, there are two processions; the Son proceeding from the Father and the Holy Ghost proceeding from both.
Can you name the type of precession each are?

Your second answer is incorrect, do you wish to try again?

Any takers on circumincession?
I will have to give the second one more thought (and study?). Do you mean circumcision?
No I don't, that doesn't relate so much to the Blessed Trinity and is not a matter defined relating to the same. A hint really big hint would be - around with -.
 

Admin

Administrator
theophilus said:
Admin said:
I will have to give the second one more thought (and study?). Do you mean circumcision?
No I don't, that doesn't relate so much to the Blessed Trinity and is not a matter defined relating to the same. A hint really big hint would be - around with -.
I found it! Circumincession:

The mutual immanence of the three distinct persons of the Holy Trinity. The Father is entirely in the Son, likewise in the Holy Spirit; and so is the Son in the Father and the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit in the Father and the Son. Circuminsession also identifies the mutual immanence of the two distinct natures in the one Person of Jesus Christ.

It is amazing what we're finding out.
 
D

Deleted member 149

Guest
Admin said:
Machabees said:
Here are the answers:

Q. Did Jesus as man have all four of the preternatural gifts when he was born?

A. No. Jesus, as man in the incarnation, only had one of the preternatural gifts of Integrity and not the other three in necessity for His work of redemption governed by His Father to accomplish.

  • Jesus, as man, for the sake of redemption, needed to die on the cross to
    expiate the punishment of sin; therefore, He did not have the gift of
    Immortality.
  • Jesus, as man, for the sake of redemption, needed to suffer to expiate
    the effects of sin; therefore, He did not have the gift of Impassibility.
  • Jesus, as man, for the sake of redemption, needed to learn ‘experimental
    knowledge’ (something of which God does not have) to associate Himself
    in fullness to our human nature with compassion and understanding in
    uniting Himself to us and ourselves in relating to him; therefore, He
    did not have the gift of Infused Knowledge as man (but as the Son of God he did); however, as man, He did have perfect knowledge. “And it came to pass, that, after three days, they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, hearing them, and asking them questions.” (Luke 2:46).
  • In all, Jesus, as man, did have the preternatural gift of Integrity.
    As explained earlier, the fullness of his reason as man was in complete
    subject to God, and his desires were in complete subject to His reason,
    and His body was in complete subject to His human soul. Therefore,
    Jesus, as man, for the sake of redemption, needed to expiate the effects
    of the inordinate desires of flesh and soul to morally suffer the most
    sensitive and acute pain in his soul; which is why Jesus had suffered
    more in his soul than in the excruciating pain in His body.
As such, the son of God taking upon Himself in the incarnation flesh from Mary His Mother, and born as a baby who is called Jesus, that as man who has a real human body and a real human soul, voluntarily did not receive the three other gifts of Immortality, Impassibility, and Infused Knowledge in order to associate himself to us and suffer physically in place of our stead. But, He purposely chose to accept the one gift of Integrity in order to suffer the most sensitive pain of the soul including the immense unbearable pain of abandonment and loss of God his Father: “And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying: Eloi, Eloi, lamma sabacthani? Which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (St. Mark 15).

Without the gift of Integrity, Jesus could not suffer as sensitive of a pain of soul as He did in His work of Redemption for the love of us.

His love is total and merciful.

To love is to sacrifice; to sacrifice is to love.

Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy…


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Q. Did Mary His mother have all four of the preternatural gifts when she was born?

A. No. Mary, His mother, only had one of the preternatural gifts of Integrity and not the other three in necessity for the work God had asked of her as co-redemptorist governed by God to accomplish.

  • Mary, as His mother, for the sake of co-redemption, and who is not
    greater than her Son, needed to die with her son; therefore, she did not
    have the gift of Immortality. [Note: we know in tradition that Mary,
    the mother of God, was assumed into heaven body and soul and did not die
    as we know it, but was preserved like Elias “And as they went on,
    walking and talking together, behold a fiery chariot, and fiery horses
    parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven.”

    (4 Kings 2), and Mary was assumed up to heaven not to let corruption
    touch His daughter. “I will put enmities between thee and the woman…”
    (Genesis 3).]
  • Mary, as His mother, for the sake of co-redemption, needed to suffer
    with her Son; therefore, she did not have the gift of Impassibility.
    “And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother: Behold this child
    is set for the fall, and for the resurrection of many in Israel, and
    for a sign which shall be contradicted; And thy own soul a sword shall
    pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.”
    (Luke 2).
  • Mary, as His mother, for the sake of co-redemption, needed to learn to
    associate herself in fullness of our sufferings we endure in our
    weakness with a compassion and understanding to unite to us and
    ourselves to her as our Mother; therefore, she did not have the gift of
    Infused Knowledge; however, she did have perfect knowledge.
  • In all, Mary, as His mother, for the sake of co-redemption, did have
    the preternatural gift of Integrity. As explained earlier, and in
    likeness of her son, she experienced complete subjection to God and had
    the fullness of her reason and her desires and body was in complete
    subject to her soul. Therefore, Mary, as His mother, for the sake of
    co-redemption, needed to also morally suffer in her soul with her son
    the most sensitive and acute pain throughout her Son’s life, torment,
    and crucifixion at the foot of the cross; and thereafter to nurture the
    infant Church for the honor and glory of God.
Without the gift of Integrity, Mary could not suffer as sensitive of a pain of soul as she did in her work of co-Redemptorist for the love of God and for us.

The love of God does this…and the love of souls greets us to do more for Him.
I really wanted to think about all the above...so want to clarify if my understanding is in line with what you have said Macchabees.

Therefore, Jesus, as man, for the sake of redemption, needed to expiate the effects of the inordinate desires of flesh and soul to morally suffer the most sensitive and acute pain in his soul; which is why Jesus had suffered more in his soul than in the excruciating pain in His body.
I have always thought that when Jesus suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane that, his moral suffering - greater than his physical suffering, was because he was suffering the pains of hell for each one of us. When that was done, he was ready to carry out the visible/physical suffering that came after. It has been said that the price for man's individual and collective sin/s required infinite compensation. Does that mean He had to suffer the penalty of hell in order to redeem me from it...and he had to pay the penalty of hell for each one of the elect, and only an infinite power could possibly do that. It had to be done to undo the injustice that was done by each one of us to the Father with our personal sins, and Adam's original personal sin (thereby freeing us from the inherited state - through Baptism/Sacraments etc.)

Christ indeed suffered morally and spiritually in the Garden of Olives, but as life continues in body and soul until that separation happens in death<font color="1979e6">, </font><font color="1979e6">and as the <font color="1979e6">mysteries of the <font color="1979e6">Rosary show, </font></font></font><font color="1979e6">Jesus <font color="1979e6">therefore had suffered even more morally and spiritually throughout in </font>order to redeem the human race from our already past and future sins. The moral and spiritual suffering Jesus suffered from the abandonment of His Father on the Cross [1] was the most painful punishment He endure for us because it was the greatest suffering that any human can suffer. St. Thomas Aquinas sa<font color="1979e6">ys that the punishment of Hell is the absence of God. So <font color="1979e6">Jesus suffered that absence of God His <font color="1979e6">Father in one of His moments within the 3-hour<font color="1979e6">s hanging on the painful and humiliating Cross.

<font color="1979e6">Remembering also that when we <font color="1979e6">have a cut<font color="1979e6">, or other, the nerve endings send an electrical signal to our material brain that effects our soul
's response of pain. As like when through our senses we hear of something sad, our soul responds <font color="1979e6">with a <font color="1979e6">proportional measure. So too, when our Lord suffered all of His physical pain, <font color="1979e6">He suffered those in His s<font color="1979e6">oul<font color="1979e6"> and all of the moral and spiritual sins against His Father to effect an <font color="1979e6">infinite measure of satisfaction against an infinite God who was offended.

[1] “And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying: Eloi, Eloi, lamma sabacthani? Which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (St. Mark 15).

</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>
Mary, as His mother, for the sake of co-redemption, and who is not greater than her Son, needed to die with her son; therefore, she did not have the gift of Immortality. [Note: we know in tradition that Mary, the mother of God, was assumed into heaven body and soul and did not die as we know it, but was preserved like Elias “And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold a fiery chariot, and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” (4 Kings 2), and Mary was assumed up to heaven not to let corruption touch His daughter. “I will put enmities between thee and the woman…” (Genesis 3).]
As mentioned above, Mary as a decedent in the human race coming after the punishment of Adam and Eve's sin and needed to die as a human under the pains of sin like all of us, but because God had preserved her as immaculate from her conception, she was not under the punishment of Adam and Eve nor did she merit the punishment to die, but like her Son, the Christ, who was also immaculate in His conception had voluntarily taken on Himself the punishment in our steed, and Mary who was asked to participate as a co-redemptorist with the sufferings of her Son, had also believed in her life (not knowing that she is immaculate the way we know it in future history) that by her own will lived her life in fidelity and prepared to die. As we know, God had other plans for His daughter, who would not see corruption, like Elias foreshadowed, had only slept. “I will put enmities between thee and the woman…” (Genesis 3).

Again, I am asking if I have the right understanding when putting things in my own words. I believe that Mary slept Yes, that is correct. (as Jesus said when raising a person from the dead that 'she is only sleeping'.) Of course He alone could do that since he would have given that woman the benefits of his coming Sacrifice for her sins...unlike our Lady, however, who could not sin. Apart from the Incarnation - Mary was redeemed because if she had been the first Eve, she would not have sinned unlike the rest of us. Eve is not guilty of the personal sins of each one of us.

Death is the wages of sin...Mary did not sin...therefore she did not have the kind of death that I have nor the kind of death that Our Lord submitted to...because, laden with sins, he went to hell as a mortal sinner would go to hell. Having already paid the price in the Garden of Gethsamane He finalised the situation in Gehenna, rescuing the purgatorial souls from eternal hell, and damning the remainder to eternal punishment. He then rose out of Hell (bodies were seen rising after Calvary) taking with him those who were in the Bosom of Abraham..prophets etc. - probably Adam and Eve also because they would have done their purgatory on earth (even St. Joseph?)

It is this total submission and what it actually entailed that shows how he totally identified with sinners. In submitting to the Father, he proved that he was dying like I die...it is as if he had no say in it at all. As God he suffered unbearably the separation from His Father; (what a soul experiences when he is damned). If the Father had sent him to hell, he would submit. Which is really what His Father did decree for his Son. As Man, he proved his humanity totally in that he would not save Himself, would not abandon us as we die; would not leave without us. He did that so that when I die He accompanies me, having been there first. I will not suffer the loss of heaven as he suffered in my place when abandoned by His Father. And, having died for each one of us, he died not only once, but as many times as there are souls to be saved (infinite). In short, he gave up His soul totally and completely that I might be rescued and snatched for Satan's grasp when weak and dying - when I, a sinner, would go straight to hell.

There is nothing truer than Hell is my destiny without the Advocacy of Our Lord Jesus Christ; without the shocking price He paid in Body and Soul, not to mention the humiliation he willingly endured. Words cannot express the depth of humility, nor can the mind comprehend, that God would humiliate Himself to save my soul.


My comments are in blue above.

 
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