Bp. Williamson makes War against Tradition: again

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Deleted member 149

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When grace is tossed, man's visions make gain.
With grief -beware!

This week’s Eleison Comments (Vatican “War”. #495) openly promotes the deeper revolutionary thinking of the Vatican II theology: "The Church of Christ" subsists in the Catholic Church" and also "through God's goodness" in "multiple elements of sanctification and truth" which are outside her (LG §8; DH§1; UR§3). This is taught by the french revolutionaries Fr. Yves Congar, Voltaire, and Robespierre among others.

The meaning is that there are two or more forms of churches represented in different beliefs and subsists in the 'catholic church" -The principle of conciliar ecumenism at its finest.

Bishop Williamson applies this in a more 'linguistic' way beginning to say that the Catholic Church is outside the traditional movement.

Quote:
"In today’s crisis of the Church, of an unprecedented gravity in all Church history, it is most important that Catholics should give due importance both to the Traditional movement and to the Catholic Church outside the Traditional movement." (Bishop Williamson, Eleison Comments, #495) [Emphasis mine.]​

We are not surprise, really, because BW has been spreading his belief that the conciliar church is the catholic church here and here and wanting a “conservative” mentality for the novus ordo to please his benefactors.

He continues in this EC to re-define the oneness of tradition to marry his erroneous theory that the catholic church is outside the traditional movement by lingually separating again the Church as one and the “traditional movement” as another. He does this in nuance with the use of his word “broadest” to begin to break up the unity of tradition from the “traditional movement” with his separating word “and effectually making a subtle separation to build on for his next proposition.

Quote:
“Tradition in its broadest sense, meaning everything which Our Lord entrusted to his Church to be handed down ( tradendum in Latin) to world’s end, is indispensable to the Church, and the Traditional movement has played an indispensable part in preserving Traditional doctrine and sacraments from their destruction by the Conciliar Revolution over the last half-century.” (Bishop Williamson, Eleison Comments, #495)​

Now he takes on an ambiguous proposition to bridge a thinking for the traditional movement to be outside the normal hierarchical structure of today’s conciliar church (above) is not only bad, but we must still be looking to that modern church of rome for life (feed my sheep). He also separates the conciliar corruption from its conciliar structure saying that the conciliar structure is very much part of “tradition”. Thus, he warrants that the traditional movement is outside of today’s “traditional structure” of the church. I will state right off that he does not differentiate the difference between the rome of today and the eternal rome ABL had fought for. Bishop Williamson has no mention there are two romes.

Quote:
But to survive, the Traditional movement had to place itself outside the normal hierarchical structure of the Church, and that structure is very much part of Tradition – “Peter, feed my sheep” (Jn XXI, 17). Therefore however deep is the Conciliar corruption in Rome, Catholics must still be looking to Rome.” (Bishop Williamson, Eleison Comments, #495)​

Now BW chooses to play a three paragraph endorsement from a novus ordo publication (like the neo-sspx does) in an interest and concern that there is a “Vatican War” going on that is “deeply” upsetting and there is a ‘split’ in the [conciliar] church with two sides: one of the “orthodox” (he brings to view as the other “traditionalists” he formed above which are really the liberal purists or conservatives of Vatican II) and the “progressives” (liberal visionaries wanting to extend ALL of Vatican II…).

Quote:
“...We have to wonder where all of this is going. It is deeply, deeply concerning. The common phrase we kept hearing that week in Rome is that there is a “war” going on in the Church – a war of the “The Spirit of Vatican II” progressives against the orthodox Catholics. One person after another shockingly used the word “war.” I have never experienced anything like this in my lifetime and I am sure most, if not all regular LifeSite readers, can say the same thing.” (Bishop Williamson Eleison Coments, #495 - American Novus Ordo publication, LifeSiteNews.)​

BW then attributes that these individuals of the “orthodox” are “waking up” to the “true doctrine” when in fact they represent the liberal “orthodox” doctrines of Vatican II and only want to return to their former 1960 and 70’s self. So essentially the “fight or split” in the Vatican II conciliar apparatus is that the conservative liberals in reflection to their liberal progressive counterparts are now being called in a quasi-way “orthodox and traditional” which BW marries in his statement above that there are “traditionalist outside and those inside” are one; they "mean and intend to be catholic".

Quote:
“Traditionalists may say that the four Cardinals and Mr Jalsevac are victims of Vatican II, waking up a little late, but let nobody say that they do not mean or intend to be Catholic. The Church will only be healed when true Doctrine and the true Hierarchy come together again, so let Traditionalists pray urgently for these souls waking up to the Conciliar war. May God give them light and strength.”

Such is the conciliar “Vatican war” –who cares! Outside of God and His structure, it is predicted that the conciliarists would fight each other. Revolution breads revolution. They only vie for power and human want. Our Lady of La Salette forewarned this. They have nothing to do with the Eternal Catholic Church. Let them fail and burn -totally- without being propped up by the failure of these compromising four bishops of the sspx.

Such is Bishop Williamson's syllogism:

The Catholic Church is of tradition.
The conciliar church is the Catholic Church.
Therefore: The conciliar church is of tradition.

The Catholic Church is of tradition.
The Catholic Church is outside the traditional movement.
Therefore: The traditional movement is outside of Tradition.
 
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Lateran

Well-Known Member
The Catholic Church are only those who are faithful to tradition (St. Athanasius)
Those who believe the new mass can nourish a person's faith are not faithful to tradition (Council of Trent)
Therefore: These people are not the Catholic Church whether they want or intend to be such

"Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father, who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matt 7:21)
 
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R

Rose

Guest
You know, it really is getting much, MUCH harder to see the distinctions between Bishop Fellay and Bishop Williamson. Can someone point out to me their major differences.

They both tell people to continue going to the SSPX.
They both tell people that as Catholics, we must be looking to Rome.
They both allow for Eucharistic miracles in the new mass.
They both tell people that tradition needs to be reintegrated into the Catholic Church.

One can go on and on.

I'm appreciative that Bishop Williamson is finally removing the last vestiges of the illusion that he is against what Bishop Fellay is doing. For they clearly have the same prospectus.
 
M

Martius

Guest
Lumen Gentium 8

This Church [the Church of Christ] constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure.”

Fr. Hesse: The word subsists doesn’t tell us much in English, but in Latin “subsistere” means to exist, to be present, to lie underneath. You could say for example that the grass is subsistent to my way of walking. But it could also be subsistent to someone else’s way of walking and not just to mine. So when you say that the Catholic Church “subsists” in the Catholic Church, it is phrased that way deliberately so as not to exclude Protestants, Orthodox, etc. The architects of Vatican II were too clever to say that the Church of Christ “contains” the Protestants, the Orthodox and all those other non-Catholics. So they said that it can be found in the Catholic Church in a way that does not exclude the others. But it is defined dogma that the Church of Christ is the Catholic Church, the two are identical. Nothing outside the Catholic Church is part of the Church of Christ and nothing of the Church of Christ is outside the Catholic Church. The two are identical.
http://www.therecusant.com/hesse-vii


Bishop Williamson:
“While the new religion is false, is dangerous, and it strangles grace, and it’s helping many people to lose the faith, at the same time there are cases where it can be used and is used to build the faith.” (Bishop Williamson, conference in Mahopac NY (usa), June 2015)

“Stay away from the Novus Ordo. But exceptionally, if you’re watching and praying, even there you may find the grace of God. If you do, make use of it in order to sanctify your soul.” (Bishop Williamson, conference in Mahopac NY (usa), June 2015)


The golden rule is this. The absolute rule of rules seems to me be this. Do whatever you need to nourish your faith.” (Bishop Williamson, conference in Mahopac NY (usa), June 2015)

"In principle the NOM is a key part of the new religion. Which is a major part of the worldwide apostasy of today." (Bishop Williamson, conference in Mahopac NY (usa), June 2015)

"N.O. priests are nourishing and building the faith in their N.O. parish."

"Stay away from the Novus Ordo, but exceptionally, if you're watching and praying, even there you may find the grace of God. If you do, make use of it in order to sanctify your soul." (Bishop Williamson, conference in Mahopac NY (usa), June 2015)

I do not say to everybody inside the Novus Ordo, priests and laity, I don’t say: ‘You’ve got to get out!’” (Bp. Williamson, conference in St. Catherine’s, Ontario, Canada, 5th November 2014)

“Therefore the NOM and the Novus Ordo Church as a whole are dangerous for the Faith, and Catholics are right who have clung to Tradition to avoid the danger. But as they have had to put a distance between themselves and the mainstream Church, so they have exposed themselves to the opposite danger of an isolation leading to a sectarian and even pharisaical spirit, disconnected from reality.” (Bp. Williamson, ‘Eleison Comments’ #438, 5th December 2015)

There’s still something Catholic in the conciliar church, so it’s wrong for us to reject it completely.” (Bp. Williamson, Eleison Comments #447​




Lumen Gentium 15

Likewise we can say that in some real way they [non-Catholic/Protestant sects] are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power.”

Fr. Hesse: What way is this “real way”? They never say. In the Gospel of St. John one can read that the Holy Ghost was given only to the Catholic Church, not to Protestants, not to the Lutheran Church, not to the Anglicans. When a Lutheran pastor baptises a baby, if it is valid, it is a sacrament stolen from the Catholic Church. If that innocent child, after being baptised, dies and goes to heaven, it goes to heaven as a member of the Catholic Church because the Lutheran pastor illicitly administered the Catholic sacrament of baptism.
http://www.therecusant.com/hesse-vii


Bishop Williamson: "Our Lord said seek and you shall find; knock and it will be open to you. If you look for the truth, and you look for the true worship of God, you may find some of it in an Anglican Church. But you start talking to the minister, probably his principles are most likely are not completely true.” (Bishop Richard Williamson: 'The Existence of God: The Pre-requisite for all Politics', July 2016, @1:19:09, www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQalQor5itQ )
http://cor-mariae.com/index.php?threads/bp-williamson-anglican-to-catholicism-in-1971.4477/




Dignitatis Humanae 2

This is perhaps the best known error of Vatican II, perhaps because its consequences are so visible, or because is an error which so many Popes fought against right up to the Council. Here’s what the document actually says: “This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits.

Fr. Hesse: The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself.(2) This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.” The supposed reason or grounds for this error, human dignity, is also itself wrong. As Pope St. Pius X said “The only dignity of man is in his being a Catholic.”

If I really thought that I had religious liberty, I would find an easier religion to belong to. Why not be an Anglican? They have nicer churches, they are more musical, their laws are not as strict... But I am not an Anglican, I am a Catholic because I do not have ‘religious liberty’, I have no choice: I am bound in conscience to be a Catholic if I want to save my soul.

“Religious freedom” or “religious liberty” has been condemned by Popes Gregory XVI, Pius IX, St. Pius X, Pius XI and Pius X. You are not free to choose your religion. You are bound in conscience to become a Catholic and to join the Catholic Church in order to save your soul. If you choose not to, you go to hell. Nobody can coerce someone into thinking something they do not want to think or believing something they do not want to believe. But the laws of a Catholic state can prevent the followers of a false religion from practising in public, from trying to make converts, from trying to spread their false doctrine and false morals, etc. Look at the catastrophic numbers of millions of souls today leaving the Church to join ‘evangelical’ protestant sects in countries where before the council everyone was Catholic: South America, the Philippines, etc. These formerly Catholic countries were forced to change their constitutions so as to no longer give the Catholic religion pride of place. All this disaster as a result of just two paragraphs in one of the sixteen documents of this robber council. As noted above, just one error is enough. One heresy makes the whole document heretical, and one heretical document makes the whole council heretical. http://www.therecusant.com/hesse-vii


Bishop Williamson:
The golden rule is this. The absolute rule of rules seems to me be this. Do whatever you need to nourish your faith.” (Bishop Williamson, conference in Mahopac NY (usa), June 2015)

"The new religion, is false, it's dangerous and it strangles grace. And it's helping many people to lose the faith. At the same time there are still cases where it's been, it can be used and is used still to build the faith." (Bishop Williamson, conference in Mahopac NY (usa), June 2015)

Do whatever you need to nourish your faith.” (Bishop Williamson, conference in Mahopac NY (usa), June 2015)

Ask a priest you trust and heed his advice — maybe.”; “Decide for yourself.”; “If you can trust your own judgment, use your own judgment.” (Bishop Williamson, conference in Mahopac NY (usa), June 2015)

"The essential PRINCIPLE is do whatever you need to keep the faith." (Bishop Williamson, conference in Mahopac NY (usa), June 2015)
http://cor-mariae.com/index.php?thr...rting-the-new-religion-and-conciliarism.4457/



St. Cyprian:

“On the one hand, therefore, it is necessary that the mission of teaching whatever Christ had taught should remain perpetual and immutable, and on the other that the duty of accepting and professing all their doctrine should likewise be perpetual and immutable. ‘Our Lord Jesus Christ, when in His Gospel He testifies that those who not are with Him are His enemies, does not designate any special form of heresy, but declares that all heretics who are not with Him and do not gather with Him, scatter His flock and are His adversaries: He that is not with Me is against Me, and he that gathereth not with Me scattereth’ (St. Cyprian, Ep. lxix., ad Magnum, n. I).
 

unbrandable

Well-Known Member
You know, it really is getting much, MUCH harder to see the distinctions between Bishop Fellay and Bishop Williamson.

This is exactly what I’ve been thinking as of late.

When I first heard the talk that Bishop Williamson was kicked out of the SSPX in order to get back the right-wingers who would leave the SSPX because of its new orientation, I didn’t think much of it. But now I’m really starting to believe it more and more.

Bishop Williamson sounds just like Bishop Fellay now.
 

Admin

Administrator
The average confused pewsitter would (and does) say: Who can you trust? Who can you believe? Then so many give up because the average Catholic cannot believe that a priest would not be doing his best as he exhorts us to do regarding the salvation of our souls. The pain of accepting that he could be deliberately deceiving them is too much. If priest A is not saying the same as priests B, C etc. who do you believe?

So many of us make the mistake of placing our trust in the person rather than the naked unadulterated faith itself. Once we accept the fact of the evidence before our eyes it is clear whom to believe - the priests who unfailingly stick to doctrine and call out those who betray it!

We have never been orphans as Our Lord promised. We will always have the truth proclaimed to us. We test the spirit by measuring what a priest says against the perennial teachings of Mother Church contained in the basic Catechism.

Christ was crucified for telling the truth - for Being the Way, the Truth and Life.

Stand still for a moment and wonder at the full revelation of the one true God and Father of us all. Look at the unfolding miracle from the time of Christ that shed light over the past, present and future not only in His time, but always in every time. The same Star continues to shed its clear light over the whole world - into every corner and crevice. Nothing about God, that we need to know, is hidden from us any more. Wonder at the sheer miracle of the Knowledge imparted to us, and in us through Mother Church. The absolute miracle of God creating a Woman, the only Woman, with the capacity to encourage her Son to suffer so cruelly for our sakes. The immeasurable depth of Her suffering to live on in a world that spits in Her Son's Face and rejects the Mercy that can only come to us through her Immaculate Heart so willingly offered - a Heart that, alone has kept back the terrible judgement hanging over our heads. Her Redeemer becomes our Redeemer when She intercedes for us. Without Her intercession we go to hell.

Oh yes! The devil is pulling out all the stops to obfuscate Mary's reason-for-being; to destroy those missionary priests under Her protection at Our Lady of Mount Carmel Seminary; by using his power to tempt our unbelieving hearts to join in the chorus of calumniators, either by throwing direct stones, listening to lying gossip or through our silence.

Just like the people who mocked Christ at the urging of their High Priests so too He is being mocked anew through the urging and neglect of our Shepherds today.

..
 
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unbrandable

Well-Known Member
The average confused pewsitter would (and does) say: Who can you trust? Who can you believe? Then so many give up because the average Catholic cannot believe that a priest would not be doing his best as he exhorts them to do regarding the salvation of our souls. The pain of accepting that he could be deliberately deceiving them is too much. If priest A is not saying the same as priests B, C etc. who do you believe?

So many of us make the mistake of placing our trust in the person rather than the naked unadulterated faith itself. Once we accept the fact of the evidence before our eyes it is clear whom to believe - the priests who unfailingly stick to doctrine and call out those who betray it!

We have never been orphans as Our Lord promised. We will always have the truth proclaimed to us. We test the spirit by measuring what a priest says against the perennial teachings of Mother Church contained in the basic Catechism.

So true. In these confusing times, this has to be our criteria.
 

Anand

Well-Known Member
I'd like to know if it is true that Bp Williamson wears Anglican style episcopal robes. If so, then why?
 
D

Deleted member 149

Guest
Bishop Williamson, quote:
"In today’s crisis of the Church, of an unprecedented gravity in all Church history, it is most important that Catholics should give due importance both to the Traditional movement and to the Catholic Church outside the Traditional movement." (Bishop Williamson, Eleison Comments, #495) [Emphasis mine.]

This statement of Bishop Williamson speaks volumes of modern heresy. This is EXACTLY what Vatican II says! They separate the Church from its movement saying it is outside making a distinct separation of Her tradition from its movement to claim a wedge and sophistry to engage in adulterous affairs.

The Catholic Church is created on the two pillars of Tradition and Holy Scripture. Catholic Tradition lives in Her movement and acts and breathes through her saints. Pope Pius X embodied this and Archbishop Lefebvre stood in the same stature fighting to give the life of the Church in all Her glory to all generations -that is the Church's Traditional movement- the Catholic Church is NOT "outside" of the Traditional movement!

Where are the other "resistance" bishops and priests? Why are they not speaking up and censure this most grave distortion against the Church?

Regardless how much linguistic and ambiguous adjectives surround the error, the error is plain as can be!

Really, what is the difference between Bishop Williamson and Bishop Fellay?
 
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Deus Vult

Well-Known Member
Fr. Hewko explains how Pope Pius VI knew how serious and dangerous this is and what he did about it:

"So now this Pope steps into the boxing ring and he's going to clean house. Here he goes. Listen to this:
They knew the capacity of innovators in the art of deception
So these are artful. This bishop and these catholic clergy are slippery snakes he says;"
"We can take the Eleison comments and do the same."
(yes, history is repeating)

Recording and transcript of the good wine of Fr. Hewko's sermon here, as well as the bull Auctorem Fidei itself:
http://cor-mariae.com/index.php?threads/ambiguity-condemned-by-pope-pius-vi-in-1794.4373/
 
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smiley

Member
There are two styles of chasubles in the Roman Rite.
We are most familiar with the fiddleback style chasuble. Another style is the Gothic.
While the Gothic is more flowing, I suppose one could think it is not traditional.
 

Anand

Well-Known Member
While the Resistance burns, Econe can fiddle. The Resistance clergy can be dismissed as being people who always had the independent spirit and the tendency to disobedience; while the SSPX, a priestly body of the common life [ funded by whom?] exists for it's priests but also to provide Mass for people who ask for it. You know, people all over the world are clamoring to the Society for the Mass and the poor Society does not have the priestly personnel to cope with these demands [ bring out those fiddles!]. Let the world be grateful [ and generou$] to the Society, and supportive of it's talks with Rome, and it's rather crazy liberal, but ever so warm-hearted popes. What the world needs now is warm heartedness.
 
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